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2nd SS "Das Reich" vs. 101st US Airborne! SWEET GAME

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2nd SS "Das Reich" vs. 101st US Airborne! SWEET GAME

Post  Panzer Bill on Sun Jan 17, 2010 11:00 am

Thanks to James and Sal for coming over to play/learn FOW. It was a great game and my first game where I actually was invovled in ASSAULTS! wow....it was sweet. A blood bath.

Sal and James came over around 6pm. I was in the middle of eating my angel hair spagetti...which I took up to the war room and James and I began to teach Sal the basics. Between teaching him how to lay out the models on the bases and teach him basic terms, we didnt start playing till 830pm! The battle launched by 9pm.

We played a 1500 point game where we had 2 very even forces face off. The SS had their HQ with some panzershreck attachments, 2 full combat platoons with HMG combat atachments, 2 motar sections for a total of 4 tubes, 3 Stugs, and a Jagdpanther. These guys faced off against the 101st HQ (smg option), 2 combat platoons (1 platoon with 3 squads 3 teams, the other with 3 squads 2 teams) this was done to have 1 platoon support the other in assault for fire and maneuver tactics....worked very well for Sal. Bother platoons had LMG support. 1 mortar platoon w/2 sections (4 tubes), 3 57mm AT guns, 1 -1 section LMG platoon, and 3 Shermans and 1 Firefly.

The battle was going back and forth all night. Sal and I had James there to help out with rules and tactics. At first Sal was affraid that there was TOO much stuff on the table, but it was VERY important for Sal to see the main part of the game.....Move, shoot to PIN and then ASSAULT. With out the LMGs ad Mortars, a key element of the game would be lost.

Sal did VERY well. He used cover well, fire and move tactics well and he even deastroyed both my infantry combat platoons!!! 1 to a prolonged assault and 1 to mortars, shooting and assault. I will post photos again with game details....Battle ended in the 7th turn in a draw and it was 12:30am and the guys were tired of all the fighting. 1 of the objectives on my side of the table was contested and all others were not. No control when the game was called, BUT Sal did have a good sized infantry platoon in assault distance of the 2 Stugs contesting his objective, if he deastroyed them, Something tells me he would win as I had no more Nazis to rush over there. Also, I had lost 3 Platoons to Sal's 2.

Photos to follow.
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Re: 2nd SS "Das Reich" vs. 101st US Airborne! SWEET GAME

Post  Panzer Bill on Sun Jan 17, 2010 12:35 pm


turn 2


turn 3


turn 4


turn 5


turn 6


turn 6


mid turn 7
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Re: 2nd SS "Das Reich" vs. 101st US Airborne! SWEET GAME

Post  KingJames88 on Sun Jan 17, 2010 7:14 pm

This was a good one. At the end, I still dont know for sure who would have won. Eventually the stugs would have been overwhelmed, however if the germans could have driven off the assault, and the two paratroopers platoons failed to unpin, it would have been a german victory but that would have been the only hope. Very close game and hopefully a good learning experience. The paratrooper mortars get my vote for MVP being that they consistently pinned the important platoons and took a good chunk away from the very threatening infantry platoon getting near the anti tank guns.

James

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Intro game

Post  Sal on Sun Jan 17, 2010 10:43 pm

Hey,

Thanks for having us over Bill and James - thanks for your coaching. I definitely would have been too overwhelmed to spend the whole game looking up rules while trying to figure out how I wanted to approach the scenario. It was actually quite funny, and for Nino or anyone else learning the game I would recommend having James there for your first game to be the "referee" of sorts. Basically, when its your turn he can tell you what to do, but on your opponents turn he shows them how to kill you haha!

As it was, I definitely got a good "feel" for the game, although it will be a long time before I can actually remember the specific stats for everything. At least I now have down the basics of the turn structure, and I also (since Bill insisted we play a FULL SIZE GAME Shocked hahah) actually got to see how alot of different units work, and even some more advanced things like how allies work. Scott, I will definitely be calling on your guards for support in the future! This was definitely much more of a learning experience than last time, which was basically just fun to watch.

I've got the turn sequence down now, and I see how infantry can be tough to kill when they are dug in. Now I have to get painting!!!

P.S. Bill thanks for the tips on basing... I didn't even have my guys based correctly, hahaha!!! Oh well. I actually have a question about the MGs - since they are both .30 cal, maybe do you think I should just use the ones I have already based as weapon teams instead of rifle/MG teams? I think I would have enough if I don't put the extra team in all of my combat teams. I would just need an HQ for the weapons platoon. Anyway just an idea, let me know what you think.

Top lessons from last night are:

MG42S ARE BETTER THAN .30 CALs
STUGS ARE BETTER THAN SHERMANS
JUST BECAUSE YOU'RE "SS" DOESN'T MEAN THAT YOU WON'T STAY PINNED FOR 3 TURNS IN A ROW

Haha...

Anyway - overall a good night, and I am looking forward to getting my stuff painted eventually and trying another game (after finishing reading the rule book). Look out for the 101 Jerry, we are coming for you!!

Sal
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Re: 2nd SS "Das Reich" vs. 101st US Airborne! SWEET GAME

Post  KingJames88 on Sun Jan 17, 2010 11:05 pm

As far as using the mgs from your rifle platoons as lmgs for a weapons platoon I would advise against it for a couple of reasons. Full strength rifle platoons are very very tough, and there will be times in the future you wish you had the extra base or two, especially when assaulting or being assaulted. The second reason is that if you get the lmg blister you'll get all 8 guns and a command team, and wont have to worry about having an understrength lmg platoon, because their best advantage over the HMG option is the choice to get 8 of them rather than 4, so you can either field a huge platoon of them, or a normal size of 4 and attach out the other 4. You saw the value of a large infantry platoon in the platoon you sent off to go attacking, it's never a bad thing to have a few extra bases of fearless veteran infantry around, as you want them to stick around as long as possible.

Next time I happen to be around I will try to not suggest any ideas to either side and just look up rules or say yes you can do that or no you can't or don't forget to do something, that way I'm not playing a mind game against myself which was rather difficult. Now that you see how things work for the most part, you wont need someone telling you not to go charging out with mortars and keeping things gone to ground at times would be better than shooting. All you would need is someone to remind you of the rules, which you'll remember in time the more you play. Since Bill only really has a handful of games up on you and was used to fielding more of an armored company, I felt it was fair to help both sides out a bit and to try to help to keep things moving that way. No more of that though, except for Nino now.

James

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Re: 2nd SS "Das Reich" vs. 101st US Airborne! SWEET GAME

Post  Panzer Bill on Sun Jan 17, 2010 11:07 pm

Sal,

some corrections:

You can not use the 3man team as an MG team instead of rifle/mg....why you ask? Cause you meant LMG. The weapon choice LMG team is a gunner, an assistant and a SGT. What you have based is a gunner, an assistant and a rifleman (you forgot the 4th figure). You will totally screw up the rest of your teams by stealing other guys from them to create other teams. BUT, you seam to be gun ho about it, so I cant tell you what to do, just offer you my advise. I would base the teams as they are meant to be based, this way you or the other guys font get confused when playing you. Not to mention you will not have exrta guys and bases stitting around and your platoons built incorrectly. Just follow the pictures on the online store for each choice....very helpful.

key thing to remember is that LMG is ROF5, an MG is ROF3, an HMG is ROF6. German MG42s in the MG roll are ROF 3, where the HMG42 is ROF6....so you cant say that .30 cals are worse than MG42s. US infantry have .30 HMG weapon teams that are rof6, 24" range just like HMG42! Also, US paras get a platoon with 8 .30 cals at ROF5 where Germans usually get a platoon wtih 4 rof6. So that is double the amount of teams, makes the platoon more flexible for purposes of combat attachment.

Just like saying the germans have tigers and the US shermans! You gotta fight with the army you have, not the army you wish you had - Rumsfeld.

every army has pros and cons, you will get used to the game. i think you did great. James helped but you did good on your own. now you know, and knowing is half the battle! - gi joe

cheers
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Re: 2nd SS "Das Reich" vs. 101st US Airborne! SWEET GAME

Post  KingJames88 on Mon Jan 18, 2010 12:16 am

Did either of you guys have any questions as to why something did or didn't happen in the game, or as to why you couldn't or couldn't do something? I was trying to remember if there was anything we weren't 100% sure on that can be looked up now that there's the time to look up any possible mistakes.

One thing i messed up when thinking about it, but we weren't able to do it anyway since the shermans were allies: the 2iC Sal was going to send to appoint a new platoon commander, I forgot that actual appointing happens in the shooting step meaning the platoon misses out on that turn of moving and the 2iC himself cannot shoot that turn because he's busy appointing a new platoon commander.

James

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Re: 2nd SS "Das Reich" vs. 101st US Airborne! SWEET GAME

Post  Sal on Mon Jan 18, 2010 2:02 am

Hey,
So wait, the allies DO get a .30 cal with 24" range??
I thought the .30 cal in the Rifle/MG team was ROF 2, 16" range and the .30 cal in the weapons team was ROF 5, 16" range, can't move and shoot. If I wanted the better range I would have to go for a .50 cal. Now I am very confused!

OK one last question - I hate to think of everything in "warhammer" terms but sometimes that's the easiest way to explain something. Can I take more "Core" troops and less "Rare" troops?

Basically - there seem to be alot of support options, but in a larger game the ratio of combat platoons to support platoons seems a bit off to me (seems to be too much support for each combat platoon). I am looking at the actual TO&E for the 101st in Market Garden. If I wanted to take additional combat platoons, could I take an additional company in the same army list? Like for example say I am playing "D" company and "E" company of the same regiment/battalion?

The reason I ask is that I may want to experiment with having multiple smaller units, and also I may want to experiment with taking additional combat platoons. In the airborne list you can only take 3 rifle/MG platoons and the rest of the army is support. One way to increase the relative points you spend on the core platoons is to make them larger (3 squads instead of 2 and put stragglers in every squad) but then the platoons become very big. The only way I can see to take multiple smaller combat platoons is to actually take more than one company in an army list, but I am not sure if this is legal or not.

Do you want to trade one of those MG teams by the way? I will trade you a prone gunner stand for one of the bipod stands if you want. Forgot to ask before I left, you brought it up but then I forgot about it... let me know.

See y'all soon

Sal
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Re: 2nd SS "Das Reich" vs. 101st US Airborne! SWEET GAME

Post  Panzer Bill on Mon Jan 18, 2010 11:48 am

Sal,

I see you are getting mixed up with the term MG. You are being specific in thinking, "if there is an MG modeled in the base, then the team must fire at "X" rof". You need to read the part of the rules where this is explained, but I will break it out for you here....

ROF chart:

rifle - rof 1 - +1 to hit when moving
rifle/mg - rof 2 - rof1 when moving
mg - rof 3 - rof1 when moving
smg - rof 3 - no movement penalty range 4"
assault rifles - rof 3 - no movement penalty range 8"
HMG - rof6 - 24" range
LMG - rof5 - 16" range


what you need to grasp is the over team instead of the individual model. if you think about it, a team of 5 riflemen have 5 guns, not 1, but the only get 1 die to roll. a riflr/mg team has only 1 actual mg or squad automatic weapon (BAR, bren gun, DT, MG34 or 42, 1919, etc) per squad. so only 1 team of 2 or 3 has an mg. all this does is give a boost in the rof, so more rounds go down range. get it? Also, many times the squad leader has an smg, this does not change the classification of the team or squad. You starting to get it?

An MG42 in an infantry squad uses a bipod and many times a 75rd drum to feed it. Hence LESS sustained fire is available, even though the weapon is the same as the HMG version of the MG42. The HMG version is fed from a belt that is fed from an ammo box containing hundreds of rounds and the assistant can tie new belts together and keep the rpm rate going as long as the barrel can take it. Usually you change the barrel evey few hundred rounds under sustained fire conditions. Also, the HMG 42 is set up on a very sturdy stand that is fired from a remote trigger, not the actual trigger and the stand helps keep the weapon level and straight, hence the longer range (acuraccy). When a soldier is running with a loose mg42, and is tired and shooting eratically, the weapon is much less effective, hence the difference in classification.

FOW has done an excellent job taking all these factors into account.

As for your question on the allies having 24" rof 6 HMGS....yes, they do. I told you when you were here. Its the water cooled browing .30cal. This weapon had a water cooler around the mg barrel that cooled the barrel down and prevented it from getting too hot to fire. Steam would pour from the top vent as this thing fired under sustained fire conditions. This gives the US an HMG AND the air cooled version on tripod an LMG rating to get 5 rof. The air cooled version in the infantry units were used to cover advanced and bounding overwatch maneuvers.

Early us forces used the regular .30 cal with tripod, but it was a pain in the ass to run, set up and fire. The time lost setting up and breaking down is represented in the game with the lower designation as rifle/mg or mg. Later on towards end of war, the US added a bipod and a stock to the aircooled browning and lower barrel to help the squads out and try and mimic the MG42. But the weapon was still HUGE and bulky and heavy and could not funtion like the MG42 in a fire and move role as good. So I think that is why FOW has kept it in the rifle/mg and mg role. BUT as an LMG where the crew set the weapon up to cover an area and sustain fire with out moving frequently (bounding overwatch and fire and maneuver tactics) the weapon's only draw back was that the barrel would over heat....so the operators would have to take it easy on the trigger sometimes.

Same holds true for the BAR. only 20 rds and no interchangable barrel. Usually the bar is 1 per squad. Not enough ROF in 20 rounds to be a true MG. BUT over all the US infantry had garands and BARs so the volume of fire was MUCH greater than other country's rifle teams, hence the "automatic rifles" special rule....very cool.



So I hope you are a bit clearer now on the whole MG thing....cause I can see you are hung up on that....and so was I for a bit when I first got into the game. Just get your head around the "MG" phrasing and see the big picture.

Also, I would love to trade, but I am anal. I cant use a bipod .30 cal as an LMG....I just cant. The US para LMG blister is worth it. for $20 you get 8 LMG teams, 2 bazooka teams and the platoon leader. You cant beat that. Just base your teams correctly, you will thank me later.....trust me.


The bigger US para box has more stuff, but is also modeled after earlier paras, Before market garden. The newer box set is after market garden when newer weapons such as the .30 cal i described above came into action....that is why you get the cool models of the gunner with the newer type .30 firing kneeling over the fence.....VERY COOL!


also about hpw many troop choices to use....its all laid out straight fwd in the particular unit's list. Some, like the US paras you can field 3 platoons of "core", some, units can field 2, some 4 more even more....each army list shows you and tells you EXACTLY what you can and cant use. its very specific. New books allow the use of many more support units (1 pick per box choice) where older books allow either 1 or 2 choices of support per combat platoon choice. SO, if you picked 2 combat choices (2 infantry platoons) you can only pic 4 support choices. Weapons choices are limited to the 0 to1 or 0 to 2 options in the older books. Newer books are 1 choice per box availbe....you can see the diagrams for this.

All I can say is READ THE RULE BOOK and the Battle Books for the specific rules of the unit you want to field. My 2nd or 12th SS from the COBRA book are different than the SS choices from the Fortess Europe book.

B
Hope this rant was helpful.


ps: forgot to talk about the .50 cal. The US paras get .50 cal AA platoon. These are used to help fight off enemy air support, BUT are great against ground targets. The .50 cal IS NOT A TRUE HMG in this game. It gets the 24" range ROF 4 cause its a medium gun team and AA designation! Usually .50 cals are 16" ROF 3 rating!!!! They have greater AT rating and firepower rating though. So no you are incorect in your thinking.

key thing to remember about US paras are they are LIGHT infantry. fire and maneuver troops. NO HMGs for them, the best you can get are the LMGs (but you get a shitload) and the AA .50 cal, but they are NOT man-packed. They are medium gun team. Thats the breaks for being Fearless Vets and all that other shit you get in your combat platoon that others dont, like a 60mm direct fire mortar and bazooka! oh yeah and Gamon bombs!


Last edited by Panzer Bill on Mon Jan 18, 2010 2:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: 2nd SS "Das Reich" vs. 101st US Airborne! SWEET GAME

Post  KingJames88 on Mon Jan 18, 2010 12:48 pm

Bill I'm starting to think you like paratroopers more than Germans now, but that's ok as it's another opponent for me.

I believe in that other paratrooper box set you may get all three combat platoons because they give you the max of what you can get in that box along with the snipers and HQ. When it comes to fearless veterans,having three big combat platoons is very very hard to deal with, just keep in mind without truscott trotting, they will be a little on the slow slide if needing to get across the board, especially in scenarios where you deploy on the short edges. Other than that, I love having giant combat platoons and I've never bought a third for myself because the german support is a little more pricey than the american support and I end up needing whatever support choices I can afford, so I try to make up for it by taking a few cheap weapons platoons like infantry guns, machine guns and mortars.

As Bill has said, try not to think so much that the weapon being fired is a 30 cal that way you just think of it as a rifle/mg infantry team, or a lmg gun team.

Just nit picking now, assault rifles also do not suffer from moving and shooting, they're like longer ranged smgs which has me considering buying a blister of them for my grenadiers as I can use them as a scout platoon.

James


EDIT: I forgot to answer the question about taking more than one company. It is completely legal Sal, however I don't recommend it until your more familiar with the rules, as its somewhat of a disadvantage and its a lot to keep track of being that you need to remember which platoons are in which company for morale purposes and other purposes like combat attachments and independent teams attaching. You don't usually see anyone taking two companies unless they want a really large force and have ran out of support options. Keep in mind that its both the combat and weapons platoons that act like the core of your army, as well as some of the support. It's the divisional support that is stuff being given to you to help support you. So if thats the part that bothers you, you can load up on weapons platoons, take 3 combat platoons, and then use the couple of paratrooper support options instead of the divisional ones. This way your a true paratrooper company without having support from anywhere else.

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Re: 2nd SS "Das Reich" vs. 101st US Airborne! SWEET GAME

Post  Panzer Bill on Mon Jan 18, 2010 2:12 pm

I like both, that is why i own both US paras and all sorts of germans. Sal and as James said, DO NOT take more than 1 company. Another bad thing with multiple companies is that when one company is forced to take a company moral test, and the other is still ok, and you fail.....YOU LOSE no matter how many companies you have! So you are better off having 1 company with alot more platoons, then 2 smaller companies with less platoons......get it? got it? GOOD! ;-)
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Re: 2nd SS "Das Reich" vs. 101st US Airborne! SWEET GAME

Post  KingJames88 on Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:15 pm

I'm eagerly anticipating a fight against either of your paratrooper companies. Just think how great those photos will look once everything is painted. The game over the weekend has given me a bit of a push to continue basing and priming to help get stuff done on my own end as well. Thanks again for having us over Bill. Now I just have to decide if I should go and get one of those Battlefoam FoW bags or wait for the one you were speaking of.

James

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Re: 2nd SS "Das Reich" vs. 101st US Airborne! SWEET GAME

Post  Sal on Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:52 pm

Yeah, that army pack looked really cool...

I can't wait to get my army painted. The one thing that was pretty sad about our game is that the terrain and both armies were all unpainted!!!

The games will look way cooler when that is no longer the case.

I got a bunch of guys primed last night... Waiting for an Osprey book to arrive from Amazon before I start painting. Unfortunately the Hell's Highway book comes with a painting guide for FJ troops and Guards armored companies, but no allied paratrooper painting guide! Maybe it was in D-1.

Sal
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Re: 2nd SS "Das Reich" vs. 101st US Airborne! SWEET GAME

Post  Panzer Bill on Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:29 pm

http://www.flamesofwar.com/Default.aspx?tabid=110&art_id=444&kb_cat_id=27

Sal, You just like wasting money. Here is a link that has a great guide. No paras, but the US colors are the exact same, cross reference with the Hells Hwy book and you will get a great idea of what you can use. The VJ colors are awesome and great matches....I use them or all FOW.
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Re: 2nd SS "Das Reich" vs. 101st US Airborne! SWEET GAME

Post  KingJames88 on Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:09 pm

Then you can get "North Africa" in the future for that other paratrooper company box set you own and paint them all up nice and khaki Very Happy

James

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